Writer/Filmmaker Brandon Terrell and Novelist Bryan Bliss watched Kevin Smith’s latest movie Yoga Hosers and then sat down to talk about what it means to be a Smith fan these days.
Bryan Bliss: Even though it’s hard to say at times, I’m a Kevin Smith fan. An apologist, even. However, the last 5 or so years of his career have left me …conflicted. Still, I find myself strangely drawn to the theater whenever he releases something. So when Yoga Hosers dropped, I felt like I was in a weird place of obligation. I was pretty sure it wasn’t going to be good…but I also knew that I would see it regardless. Do you feel this at all? Give me your Kevin Smith hot take.
Brandon Terrell: You know, once upon a time ago, I would have said, “Yes” to the question of obligation. Now…not so much. And that’s not to say I’m not a Kevin Smith fan. I very much am. He’s an engaging speaker with an amazing knack for storytelling. Anyone who’s heard his story about his version of a Superman movie, or his story about directing a music video for Prince will agree. And now that he’s jumped to television and is directing episodes of The Flash, I’m very excited. But his feature work lately has been very hit or miss with me. I was introduced to Smith by a buddy who brought a VHS tape of Mallrats and Clerks to my house for a double-feature. And these were pivotal movies at a pivotal time for me. I was going off to college, and seeing that Smith made Clerks the way he did (and how he fit into the whole indie film boom of the late 90s) drove me into filmmaking. But along the way, probably somewhere around Jersey Girl, his movies started falling flat for me. It was like, I was going to the theater hoping he’d knock out a homerun like Chasing Amy and was leaving slightly bummed out because instead he wound up hitting a solid single like Clerks 2.
Bryan: Mallrats was my introduction to Kevin Smith, too. Also in college. All of my friends were like, “You’ve got to see this movie!” And I was like, “The one with Brenda Walsh in it?!” When I saw it - also on VHS - it was like, Holy Shit. This is exactly what it feels like when I’m hanging with my friends. This is the kind of shit we talk about. At the time, I didn’t know how Clerks was made or Smith’s place in the growing 90’s indie movement. I just knew that here was a guy who was making movies that really - maybe for the first time - spoke to what it felt like to be 18, 19, 20 and stuck in a shitty job. I can’t deny that he’s a guy I can point to as a direct influence in my own writing career.
That all said, I agree that he’s an engaging storyteller. I listen to his podcast. I’ve watched the Evening with Kevin Smith videos. I’ve seen him live. But do you think he’s a good filmmaker? Despite being a good oral storyteller, I wonder if feature length films are actually his medium. Maybe it is television? Maybe it’s podcasting and Q&A type events? Basically, I’m not sold.
Brandon: That’s a tricky question. What is it that hasn’t sold you on him as a filmmaker? I think he’s pretty solid, in the sense that he’s gifted with the language of film and has the ability to navigate the world of film. But I don’t think he’s pushed himself enough as an artist. Red State was a good example of an attempt to get out of his comfort zone, and I think the new trilogy which Yoga Hosers is a part of is an attempt to do that as well. Chasing Amy, and specifically that scene outside the hockey arena in the rain, where the camera was loose and frantic, is still probably my favorite bit of work, because it was the first time I saw him really using the language of film in his storytelling. But he has a tendency to stay in his lane, and keep himself comfortable. Clerks 2, Clerks 3 (if it happens), his new Mallrats show, they’re all playing to his core fan base. What would you think of his work if he, for instance, directed something he hadn’t written?
As far as television is concerned, it’s harder there to judge his efforts as a director, because he came into The Flash at the end of season 2, when the cast and crew were already a well-oiled machine. That’s not to say he doesn’t deserve credit, because I think his episode was one of the stronger ones of the season (and by that point, the season was full-on geeking out, so directing an episode where the Speed Force is an actual character was not a cake walk). But still, even in the world of Barry Allen, Jason Mewes shows up in the episode. So there’s Smith was tipping his hat to his fan base. I’m excited to see what a Kevin Smith television show will look like.
Bryan: I think I just don’t see the growth in him that I - and this is a totally subjective and possibly selfish statement - want to see. I think when you look at the arc from Clerks to Dogma, you have somebody who was primed to keep upping the ante and making movies that really speak to current culture. Like I said, I might be projecting what I like about his films onto his career… but it seems like he’s gone from having something to say to just totally engaging wherever his whimsy might take him. Now, I don’t know if that’s a bad thing or not. I’m tempted to say it isn’t… but at the same time, I kind of wish the guy who wrote Chasing Amy would come back. The guy who you could tell had something to say. Is that in these new movies? I’m not sure. But what brings me back to his work again and again is the fact that - at some point - I really think he’s going to get back to a place where he makes another culturally important movie. But maybe I’m just being an asshole here? I’m willing to accept that…
That said, I kinda did like Yoga Hosers. And I was surprised to have liked it. I thought Tusk was just okay, so I went in with pretty low expectations. But when I finished half of me was excited and the other half was kind of like, What the hell did I just watch?!
What did you think?
Brandon: Well, I…I didn’t like it. It never really felt like a cohesive movie to me. It had no weight to it. It was a movie stew that never settled into anything palatable. At least with Tusk, you had the performance of Michael Parks to hang onto. He was excellent in Red State and delivered a gonzo performance in Tusk that anchored the movie. At least until Johnny Depp showed up. His French-Canadian detective was in a whole different movie than Parks, and it actually took me out of the film. This time around, Depp’s in the right movie, but the tone is so vastly different from Tusk that, for me, I don’t see how the two films can be within a shared world. Did that bother you at all? Or am I misreading the tone of Tusk? The Bratzis were something straight out of the same world as The Gingerdead Man (yeah, I just referenced a Gary Busey film), and the evil Nazi living under the Eh-to-Zed? How did that make any sense at all? And there were so many things in there that just made me cringe. The over-use of every Canadian stereotype felt like Fargo on Red Bull. Maybe I’m sensitive to that, since being a Minnesotan means having to explain that we all don’t talk like Marge Gunderson. But man, from the name of the store to the horrible puns to Pucky Charms, it was just too much. There were other bothersome things, like the impressionist Nazi, the ‘out of left field’ Satanist hunk, the horrible Scott Pilgrim VS. the World-esque exposition-laden title cards for characters, the completely pointless use of ‘yoga’ to defeat the Bratzis and the two girls’ immediate understanding of what’s going on and how they need to defeat it…Hoo, I could go on and on.
Allllllll that said, there were actually things I enjoyed about the movie. I thought the two Colleens were pretty solid (Lily Depp was especially good). And Justin Long was the most amusing and clever part of the movie for me. Which parts of the flick had you excited and engaged?
I hope you’re right, that he’ll find his way back to creating something that impacts culture the way Chasing Amy and Dogma did. At least I hope so.
Bryan: Well, when you put it that way…
No, I actually agree with everything you’re saying. And I think that’s kind of the point I’ve been trying to make. Right now, we’re at a place where nobody is telling Kevin Smith No. Well, the big studios seem to be… I mean there’s no check on his creative whim. Should I make a movie with “Bratzis”? (In case you haven’t seen the film, it’s Kevin Smith dressed as a Nazi/Bratwurst monster/thing. I don’t know.) The answer to that should’ve been a resounding NO. But here we are. Again, I didn’t think the movie had any stakes. I thought the typical Kevin Smith dialogue was pretty soft - mainly because of the terrible puns, etc that you mentioned - and overall the entire movie seemed half-cocked. Or half-baked, if you know anything about Smith’s recent foray into Weedville. When you put it up against Tusk, I kind of come out at a place of, “Well, I didn’t expect much more than this…” At the end of the day, it’s a poorly constructed story and a script that probably should’ve been vetted by some people who weren’t Kevin Smith fanboys. Hey, maybe we can get that gig?
On a positive note: I also thought the two Colleens were pretty damn good. And I agree, especially Lily Depp. When I finished, that’s what I held on to. It’s what made me think, “Okay. This isn’t terrible…” But now that we’re talking about it…
This is why I mentioned obligation at the beginning! I’m not sure why I would ever seen another Kevin Smith movie after this, but I know I will see Moose Jaws when it comes out. I think this is what self hatred feels like…
So do you think this is all we can expect from Smith moving forward? Are we just old people wishing Weezer would come out with another Blue Album? That George Lucas would stop messing up Star Wars?
Brandon: Sorry, I didn’t catch that last part. I was too busy pre-ordering the newest BluRay Special Edition of the Star Wars saga. It’s become an annual tradition, I suppose. That and yelling at the neighborhood kids to get off my lawn…
Yeah, I think this is what we can expect from Smith as a film director moving forward, at least if his work slate is any indication. Moose Jaws, Clerks 3, MallBrats (whatever that’s morphing into. Last I’d read, he was pitching it as a television show instead of a feature). It all just feels like he’s trying to capitalize on the past instead of growing as a filmmaker. I don’t know. Maybe this will change if his Buckaroo Banzai series is greenlit (and maybe it already has been, I’m not sure). The dude’s got a passion for comics and superheroes. He wrote a draft of a Superman movie. He’s tackled Batman, Daredevil and more as a comic book writer. He friggin’ named his kid after a Batman villain, for crying out loud. And his dialogue usually sparkles best when it’s referencing nerd culture and comics specifically. I mean, he was able to get Stan Lee to say one of my favorite Smith lines: “Of course, the Green Goblin showed up, and he pumpkin-bombed the hell out of the place.” So maybe the turn to TV will be Smith’s next evolution. If so, that’s something I can get excited about.
Also, if Smith needs two dudes to read his scripts and pick them apart before the camera rolls, count me in.
Brandon Terrell is a Minnesota-based writer/filmmaker. He is the author of over 50 children’s books, and spent a decade in the film and television production world, where he worked on commercials and feature films as an Assistant Director.
Bryan Bliss is the author of Meet Me Here, No Parking at the End Times, and the forthcoming We’ll Fly Away, all with HarperCollins. He lives in Saint Paul, MN with his family
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