Chris: Good morning, Andrew. Hope your weekend was swell, etc. I want to start this week’s Game of Thrones recap at the beginning: with the Mother of Dragons. This season I’ve been complaining about Danaerys’ march across Essos sacking cities and freeing slaves. In short, my opinion has been: it’s great, but getting old.

But after the previous episode with Jaime and Cersei, what unfolded last night, and the prolonged conversation that followed about sexual violence in this show, I’ve completely changed my mind. I want Dany to eschew the Iron Throne and liberate those in slavery. Dany was the first person we saw in Game of Thrones sold into bondage (by her brother, remember) and subjected to rape and violence from her unknown husband. Now, her power unparalleled in this world, her efforts are geared towards freeing others in bondage. I admit here I was wrong about Dany. Her arc is one of the few that I am behind. Dany is one of very few character in Game of Thrones that has complete agency over all her actions (maybe Littlefinger?), and what she’s doing with it is powerful to watch. I’m sure that won’t last. But I’ll take it for now.

Andrew: My feelings about Dany are complicated. As you said, she’s one of the only female characters with any real agency, and that’s a big deal. In a world in which even the highborn Cersei is treated as an object to be dominated and discarded at will by her brother and rapist, Dany is a total asskicker, an avenging angel who it’s easy to root for.

But as I’ve said before, Dany’s exploits in Essos just don’t feel real and rooted to me. The show takes a colonialist view toward the land across the sea from Westeros, essentially imagining it as the barbarous and mysterious East. Essos is wild, it’s backward, it’s treacherous—and it is, basically, a shallow background for the story of a white savior’s development into a Queen deserving of the Iron Throne. The slavers and the slaves rarely emerge as anything but cardboard cutouts against which Dany can practice her savioring. It’s kinda gross.

Not to mention that Dany’s vision of justice is a little problematic. The slavers of Mereen are disgusting people—but torture, which is what crucifixion is, hardly rises to the level of justice.

Chris: You’re right about the White Savior Complex. We’ll have to see what happens on that front because it presents real problems. Moving on. “Oathkeepker” was the title of last night’s episode, and we have to acknowledge that the Oath Keeper in reference here is Jaime Lannister. Talk about problematic. Jaime’s training scene with Bronn, his visit to Tyrion in prison, his graciousness towards Brienne and commitment to keeping Sansa safe, these are the actions of the Kingslayer that we came to sympathize with in season 3. Another character entirely from the Jaime we last saw raping Cersei in the sept. I appreciate Game of Thrones recognizes that perpetrators of immense violence are also capable of good actions, too (Andy Greenwald’s “moral quicksand” is the best term I’ve seen for this). That’s how things work. But in this patriarchal world, where violence against women functions at an ever-present din, we (and the writers) should not forget what these men have done.

For the record, Andrew, I don’t just want to talk about rape in this show. But I can’t help it. Jaime, Dany, now the Mutineers who are going to fuck Craster’s women “til they’re dead” (with women being raped in the background of the shot as he declares it!) The sexual violence in this show has once again returned to almost deafening levels.

Andrew: “Deafening” is an interesting and apt way to put it—and it reminds me of Christopher Orr’s assertion that where showrunners Benioff and Weiss often fuck things up is when they look at Martin’s source material and say, basically, let’s turn this up to 11. Theon gets tortured offstage in the books? Let’s show it in the TV show in gruesome detail. Jaime and Cersei have sex over the corpse of their dead son in the books? Let’s have Jaime force himself on his sister in the TV show. The Night’s Watch is full of criminals and rapists in the books? Let’s show them actually raping women in the TV show!

This attitude is, to use a word I’ve already used, gross. It’s the thing I like least about GoT—the sense that Benioff and Weiss, the writers, the directors, are somehow getting off on all the nastiness. That they’re indulging in all this stuff because they think it’s fun. It’s also a dumb attitude since the material in the books is already at a 9 or a 10 most of the time. The volume hardly needs to be turned up to make things interesting to a premium cable audience.

This tension between the show and the books is going to continue. Even George RR Martin is getting in on the second-guessing about why Benioff and Weiss change certain things. Often, the changes are bad or dumb or unmotivated—but there’s one way that the show went off-script last night that seems potentially interesting to me. Namely, the scene with the White Walkers taking Craster’s son. Apparently this wasn’t in the books, or at least not yet. This was a fascinating scene—and one where I have no idea what’s going on.

Chris: I love the fantasy elements in Game of Thrones, and was quite pleased to visit the White Walker gathering at the little ice stonehenge. We’ve no idea where the Walkers story will go (as you said, it’s not from the books), and that’s exciting. My household’s been patiently waiting for more White Walkers, and even this little glimpse was welcome. Are the Walkers humans who were transformed by the horned-Walker? Curious. More Walkers please.

The only thing I love more than the fantasy elements on this show is the politics. It would appear that the murder-mystery I was looking forward to was revealed without any fanfare: Littlefinger and Olenna Tyrell teamed up to murder Joffrey by hiding poison in Sansa’s necklace. A brilliantly conceived plan, by the way, if you want to keep the Lannisters’ attention on the Starks. Watching Margaery learn that her grandmother killed her husband, and seeing Margaery turn around and begin the Tyrell-ification of Tommen Lannister was some masterclass stuff. As Margaery left Tommen alone in his room with his boyish grin, you could feel the life being sucked out the Lannister Family’s hold on King’s Landing. Sorry Cersei, the new queen appears to have things well in hand.

Andrew: That scene in Tommen’s bedroom was remarkable—remarkable for the wide-eyed innocence on one side, and the cold calculation on the other. Tommen’s not at all like his brother, his attitude toward the cat Ser Pounce demonstrates that much. And Margaery’s a smart political operator. I agree with you: she’s got the upper hand over Cersei in this particular struggle.

In fact, it seems to me that Cersei is letting her anger at Tyrion blind her to a real opportunity to gain power and influence in King’s Landing. As Olenna says, Cersei isn’t stupid—so why does she really seem to think that Tyrion and Sansa were the ones who killed Joffrey? It seems to me that she should be wise to a potential frame-up, and if she managed to put the killing on House Tyrell…well, goodbye Margaery.

But that doesn’t seem likely to be the way things play out, which is good I guess, because I’m really looking forward to hearing what Tyrion says in his defense in court. I hope the trial comes soon, because to be perfectly honest with you, after two relatively quiet episodes I’m looking forward for the story to move forward in a decisive way. What can I say? I guess the Purple Wedding spoiled me.

Chris: We can’t end this week without talking about what is perhaps the biggest new thread in the plot. That would be the arrival of Locke at Castle Black. Locke, you will recall, is the Bolton nasty who chopped off Jaime’s hand and was sent north to infiltrate the Night’s Watch to find and kill the Stark Boys. The Night’s Watch has essentially fallen apart since the mutiny North of the Wall and Jon Snow’s return from the Wildlings. A society of criminals dissolving into power struggles provides the needed backdrop peak my interest in Jon Snow-a boring character overall, frankly. And the story of Brandon Stark as a Wog can use a jolt to electrify that very fun but stalled part of the story. And since Noah Taylor is terrific, I’m happy to see his (completely awful) Locke furthering two stories at once.

Andrew: Every time I see Noah Taylor in the role of Locke, I can’t help thinking of the six-fingered man from the Princess Bride. They look so similar! That distraction aside, I also love the way his coming to Castle Black, and Bran stumbling into Craster’s Keep, is complicating the plot in the North. Locke was dispatched by Roose Bolton to find Bran and Rickon—now it looks like Jon Snow’s going to lead him right too them. Not to mention all the other plot elements that, right now, seem like a powder keg waiting and waiting and waiting to blow. The Wildlings are getting ready to attack Castle Black from both sides, there are still White Walkers out there, and meanwhile, Ramsay Snow and Theon/Reek are headed to Moat Cailin, also on orders from Roose Bolton. And Tyrion’s forthcoming trial in King’s Landing.

Sooner or later, this powderkeg is going to explode. And that’s why I’m still, almost in spite of myself, excited for the next episode. There’s lots of nasty stuff in GoT—but the waiting, still, is the hardest part.

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